Digital Art Community Forum for Artists & Creators

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-01 06:43:26

I should preface my post by mentioning that I've been painting digitally since the late 90's, and have used every digital art software that's worth testing out. Currently, Rebelle is one of my favorites, beating out other art software with similar focus (Corel Painter, Artrage, Painstorm Studio). With that said, it currently has a glaring hole in its brushes--dry/scumbling brushes. It's one that I absolutely need to have and use all the time in my work. I tried to simulate it with different brush settings in Rebelle (using both oil/acrylic and charcoal/pastel brushes) and I just couldn't achieve that look. I can do it fairly easily in some of the other art software (especially in Photoshop), and I would hate to be forced to have to get that look outside of Rebelle. I don't think anyone likes having to export between apps during their workflow. If we can get some nice scumbling dry brushes, it would really make the painting experience feel much more complete. Here are a few images to demonstrate the look I'm talking about. You can see how in my work, that dry/scumbling look is very important for imparting interesting textures. [img]http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/paintings_drawings/new/portraits/Loona_JinSoul_portrait-BW-Robert_Chang.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/paintings_drawings/new/portraits/Loona_HaSeul_portrait-Robert_Chang.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/paintings_drawings/new/portraits/Heejin_portrait_BW-Robert_Chang.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/paintings_drawings/new/portraits/Heekkie_portrait-Robert_Chang.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.ethereality.info/ethereality_website/paintings_drawings/new/portraits/Heejin_Blindfold_portrait-Robert_Chang.jpg[/img] When I tried to get that dry scumbling look in Rebelle, the brushes were all too neat and smooth, unable to create less predictable dynamic behavior to achieve that dirty, gritty look I want when imparting a sense of texture in my brushwork. The additional "texture" brushes I downloaded from Escape Motion's website were like that too, even if they did create more chaotic looking texture patterns. The problem is, if I decrease the load or oiliness, it simply makes the paint more diluted/faint, not more dry. It's also impossible to get that scumbling effect where the bristles are splayed out in chaotic directions as you scrub the canvas with the dry brush. Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up, because I would love to see these types of dry scumbling brushes in Rebelle. It'll make this amazing software even better, and I wouldn't have to switch to other apps just to achieve that look.

Username: Carles
Post Date: 2022-07-01 11:47:51

I guess i understand what yo are looking for. You can achieve something like this: Locate any "Rake" Brush. For example the Rake ones in Oil category. Or better you can download my watercolors brushes (in the Free Assets section); it have some Rake brushes not so smooth as the default ones. Copy the presset with contextual menu. Paste presset in Pastels. Use the new presset in Mixer only mode. This will drag existing pixels. Probably the new presset will still look too smooth. Tweak it. Try switching off Smudge, add a little of angle and space jitter. Change the grain. Deactivate Grain Smoothing. And maybe the most important, activate Tiled Grain. You can also use any Texture brush (there's many in Free Assets section) in Mix only mode.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-02 02:20:27

Thanks for the tips! I tried them out, but couldn't get anywhere close to the kind of looks I'm after. This is what it ended up looking like: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/07/2804/2022-07-02_02-07:16_rebelle dry brush scumbling test.jpg[/img] But take a look at what I'm able to achieve in Photoshop without needing to do any customization--just presets from brush packs I have purchased: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/07/2804/2022-07-02_02-07:26_photoshop dry brush scumbling test.jpg[/img] You can see how in Rebelle, no matter what you do, the results always end up too clean and neat, lacking the gritty, dirty, chaotic textures that I love so much. Also, these brushes in Photoshop aren't just a bunch of random jitters that you can't control. I can totally paint in a very controlled manner with them, as demonstrated in my work posted above.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-02 03:08:15

It seems in Rebelle, those texture brushes I downloaded can get somewhat close, but they are too random in their jitters and very hard to control if you want to apply them to specific areas, and they still contain to much paint and not dry enough to create the kind of gritty look I'm after, even if I try to decrease the load. The main problem is that with Rebelle's brush engine, when you decrease the load or stylus pressure, it's acting more like a brush opacity control, instead of controlling the amount/wetness of the paint. Ideally the paint will start to run out and dry up, creating that gritty dry scumbling look. I've seen numerous other posts here asking for that feature (ability to let the paint run out and become more dry), so I know I'm not the only one who wants this in Rebelle. Some of the posts even placed so much importance on it that they said they will not buy Rebelle until that feature has been added, and in some ways, I agree with them. Here are a few more tests done in other art apps: Artstudio Pro: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/07/1/2022-07-02_03-07:53_Artstudio Pro dry scumbling test.jpg[/img] Procreate: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/07/1/2022-07-02_03-07:14_Procreate dry scumbling test.jpg[/img] Infinite Painter: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/07/1/2022-07-02_03-07:31_Infinite Painter dry scumbling test.jpg[/img] Obviously this is doable, and doesn't necessarily require a fast desktop computer's resources, since these were all done on the iPad Pro. But to be fair, there are other apps I tried that couldn't quite get this look--at least not from the preset brushes--such as Corel Painter, Artrage, Paintstorm Studio, and Krita. It's probably possible, but I didn't have time to customize, whereas the above screenshots required no tweaking of the brushes at all--they're just preset brushes.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-24 21:03:26

Any solutions for the lack of dry brush/scumbling brushes? Maybe I have overlooked something? If I can get these types of brushes in Rebelle, it would be amazing, because then I could just stay in it and not have to export out to other apps just to get that look I use so much in my artworks.

Username: Vevo
Post Date: 2022-07-25 12:49:21

Hi LunatiqueRob, According to our development team, this should be doable with the current settings of the Brush Creator panel. Could you please send us the actual names of the brushes in the particular software that you provided as an example? We will look closely into their settings and will try to help you create such brush in Rebelle. Thank you in advance!

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-26 06:40:10

I spent a few hours putting this together. I went through my huge Photoshop brush collection and selected some that I feel are representative of the kind of brushes I'd love to see in Rebelle. They allow me to paint with dynamic bristle movements/angles, and/or interesting and dynamic gritty textures, but are still easy to control (as opposed to just scatter/jitter all over the place unpredictably). The ones with gesso textures built in are also some of my favorites, and I wish Escape Motions had a paper collection that contains various gessoed textured surfaces (from fine and neat brisle marks, to wild and rough bristle marks, of various stroke sizes, angles, curves, etc). What these brushes all have in common, is the dry brush/scumbling quality, where the paint is drying out and being rubbed onto the surface in a way that creates a gritty and grimy textured look. The problem with Rebelle's brush engine right now, seems to be that when decreasing the load, the paint doesn't actually dry out and create this effect--instead, it tends to just decrease the opacity of the brush. Here are the brushes I used to create the preview images below: [URL]https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuJvJJ14eSzGhY5l2gYT18CG0TkVQg?e=7zo0Yq[/URL] [img]https://i.imgur.com/YQv0Tc3.jpg[/img] [img]https://imgur.com/a/LzJkj9u[/img][img]https://i.imgur.com/FciutIv.jpg[/img][img]https://imgur.com/a/LzJkj9u[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-26 06:42:30

Sorry, the link to the brushes didn't show up as clickable, so here it is again (it's stored on my OneDrive cloud storage, and perfectly safe to download--it's just a Photoshop .abr file): [URL]https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuJvJJ14eSzGhY5l2gYT18CG0TkVQg?e=7zo0Yq[/URL]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-07-31 02:03:46

I just spent many hours experimenting in Rebelle, trying to achieve the kind of dry brush/scumbling effect I'm after, and no matter what I try, the results are just not as gritty and dynamic as I want. Here are a few of the brushes I customized in Rebelle, but they don't look/feel anything like the Photoshop ones I posted above: [img]https://i.imgur.com/ZwvpgPu.jpg[/img][img]https://imgur.com/ZwvpgPu[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-01 07:03:06

I'd also like to show some great examples of real dry brush/scumbling from the master painter, Richard Schmid, who used that technique so well to make his paintings more expressive. The developers of Rebelle probably are already aware of his work, but if not, analyzing his brushwork will really help with the brush engine development. [img]https://i.imgur.com/F0xjSgY.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/eVXXtj9.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/UFiviOH.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/LdT3vna.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/vYVDjtH.jpg[/img] [img]https://i.imgur.com/HAdqWit.jpg[/img]

Username: Vevo
Post Date: 2022-08-01 13:35:03

Thanks so much! We're currently looking into this to find out what can be done to achieve this effect in Rebelle.

Username: farshore
Post Date: 2022-08-01 20:32:31

"I just spent many hours experimenting in Rebelle, trying to achieve the kind of dry brush/scumbling effect I'm after, and no matter what I try, the results are just not as gritty and dynamic as I want. Here are a few of the brushes I customized in Rebelle, but they don't look/feel anything li e the Photoshop ones I posted above:" Would you please export these test brushes to the Rebelle free assets? I would like to play around with them a bit. They look to be useful. Thanks.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-03 19:17:48

[USER=3918]@farshore[/USER] - Those were just the existing brushes (either default brush library or available for download from Rebelle). All I could do with them was to adjust the loading, or the opacity curve, or maybe the tip shape and texture, but they really didn't end up looking different enough from their default states--which was why it was so disappointing.

Username: foxandvelvet
Post Date: 2022-08-05 00:05:41

Hi, Something like this?[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/08/2804/2022-08-05_00-08:49_Screenshot 2022-08-04 at 23.03.00.png[/img]

Username: Avaha
Post Date: 2022-08-06 19:21:37

Wouldn't he be able to achieve his goal by making brushes which use all 4 of the shapes and grains?

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-06 20:36:53

Nice! I see that you're using brush shape and grain that are not included in the default Rebelle library, so I assume you either imported them from somewhere else or created them yourself? Is there's a source for downloading them? Do you mind sharing the brush preset? I haven't taken the time to import/create brush shapes/grains in Rebelle yet, so maybe that's the key. It's a very time-consuming process to create a set of dry/scumbling brushes, and if someone already created a brush pack out there I can download or purchase, I'd prefer to just do that. Although in the future, Escape Motions might create a set of brushes that can achieve what I'm after, I have a feeling it'll take a while for that to happen, and if I want to paint with those effects in Rebelle right now, I'd need to do something about it myself.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-06 20:39:13

[USER=11081]@Avaha[/USER] - I thought about that, but I don't necessarily need the brush to dynamically run out of paint in multiple stages of pressure sensitivity--I just need that specific look, and just trying to create the very gritty and dry look was impossible--at least not with the included default brush shapes/grains.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-07 01:18:08

Okay, I created some custom shapes and grains and gave it another shot. It's better than my previous attempts, but it's still not quite there. There still isn't enough sharpness to the gritty quality, and the overall behavior is still not dynamic enough. When you compare these to the Photoshop ones I posted, it's very obvious those look and feel more dynamic. [img]https://i.imgur.com/Fb1S3Ro.jpg[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-07 01:22:10

BTW, why is it that in Brush Creator, often there are some parameters that are grayed out and cannot be changed, such as Pressure Size/Opacity, or Canvas Paper Texture Strength? But it differs from brush to brush, as some do allow those parameters to be changed. What determines this?

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-07 02:03:07

A couple more. [img]https://i.imgur.com/Qn3U7x0.jpg[/img] Also, there's something else I can't figure out. There are some brushes that have shapes and grains that are not in the default library if you click on shape or grain to try to find them. Where are these actually stored? I looked in the brush categories folders and they're not in there.

Username: Vevo
Post Date: 2022-08-19 12:46:34

Hi [USER=101069]@LunatiqueRob[/USER], [i]"BTW, why is it that in Brush Creator, often there are some parameters that are grayed out and cannot be changed, such as Pressure Size/Opacity, or Canvas Paper Texture Strength? But it differs from brush to brush, as some do allow those parameters to be changed. What determines this?"[/i][i] [/i]-- When a parameter in the Brush Creator panel is greyed out, most of the times it is because this parameter uses its curve settings instead of the slider settings (curve editor is the icon next to the slider):[i] [/i] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/08/2/2022-08-19_12-08:29_Screenshot 2022-08-19 at 12.42.36.png[/img] To be able to use the slider instead, click the X button in the left bottom side of the curve editor. This will change your selected brush, so to put it back to the previous state, you'd need to reset the brush changes. [i]"Also, there's something else I can't figure out. There are some brushes that have shapes and grains that are not in the default library if you click on shape or grain to try to find them. Where are these actually stored? I looked in the brush categories folders and they're not in there." [/i]-- Not all shapes and grains are available. You can create and add your own shapes and grains to the library anytime. Hope this gives you more insight!

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-08-25 18:45:16

Thanks so much!

Username: Keen4e
Post Date: 2022-09-08 14:04:07

Hi Rob, Would you mind sharing the dry/scumbling brushes that you have come up with so far please?

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-09-15 04:37:22

Sure. Here they are: [URL]https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuJvJJ14eSzGhaMsBUjRf52OQB66Ug?e=wC8PRx[/URL]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-09-15 04:39:15

The forum didn't create a clickable link automatically, so here it is again. (Can't wait for us to migrate to the new forum. This one is just terrible, with very limited features.) [URL]https://1drv.ms/u/s!AuJvJJ14eSzGhaMsBUjRf52OQB66Ug?e=wC8PRx[/URL]

Username: Lokrinn
Post Date: 2022-09-15 10:43:11

Great brushes, thanks a lot!

Username: Keen4e
Post Date: 2022-09-15 14:44:49

That's kind of you Rob, thanks!

Username: Dargun
Post Date: 2022-10-26 12:23:10

Pardon me (I realize I may be late to the party here but I wanted to try and help if possible!) The short answer is I agree, Rebelle probably doesn't have a pack like you want [i]by default[/i], the long answer is you can definitely make those! I had a very similar issue where the default Rebelle brushes (while beautiful) weren't getting the specific shapes and styles of mark making I wanted, so I spent a weekend batch-making a ton of custom brushes (mimicking what I had in Photoshop and Clip Studio Paint). Almost every brush I made came out perfectly if not improved so here are my thoughts. Firstly If you haven't already watched the brush creator tutorial series from the Escape Motions youtube channel it is well worth your time! I've made brushes in several other programs but I didn't understand how to fully utilize rebelle brush creation untill I watched the tutorials. Link here - [MEDIA=youtube]9psTrAfhJcM, list: PLUuRcU19WlxZstZs73JQXEyRZrVzZFbCK[/MEDIA] Secondly looking at the examples you posted from Photoshop, Artstudio, Procreate, and Infinite painter, I don't see anything that doesn't look doable in Rebelle. One of the biggest roadblocks I found to making those rough / gritty / dirty scumbling kinds of brushes was simply the tip-shape. Rebelle doesn't come with a lot of wild "scumbling" shapes so I think it would definitely be worth your time to import some of your favorites from other programs. You can't import Photoshop brushes directly so the quickest way I found to do it was "in bulk". Start by making a (256 x 256) pure black square canvas in Photoshop (or any desired program), and on a separate layer "stamp" the brush tip shape in pure white as close as you can get to the edges without going over the sides. Sometimes it helps (especially with brushes with odd stamp-shapes) to have a second canvas open where you can stamp freely (without having to get it perfect in the border the first time) then re-size it to fit the black square. It's important to "stamp" not smear the tip when you press down, some brushes are sensitive and it might take a couple of tries but you want the tip shape not the full stroke. Once you get the stamped imprint the way you want it, save the 256 X 256 file as a PNG but don't close your canvas. Turn off the layer with the white paint (so you have a clean black square again) and just rinse and repeat making a new clean layer for all the brushes / stamps you want from that program. Once you have your desired brush tips you want to put them in the "shapes" folder wherever rebelle is installed for you. Idk what system you are on, but for me (running windows 10) it's YourUserProfile>AppData>Local>EscapeMotions>Rebelle5>Brushes>Shapes Now all you have to do is find a setting or two or three you like for the scumbling brush, try different combinations of jitters and play around with the curve editors so you can specify exactly how and when the brush makes certain marks. (those are going to be some of your best friends for those "messy" effects and so will the "Rotations". (None, Follow trajectory, Pen Tilt, and Pen Rotation.) "Smudge" and "smudge quick strokes" vs no smudge may also be worth looking at. (Again if you haven't watched those tutorials they are lifesavers for figuring out exactly what you need to tweak.) If you are able to find a couple "scumbling" settings you like, just make coppies of the brush and add the imported tips. (Remember to save the setting as the new brush default when it's just the way you want it in case you ever have to revert it.) And thats about it! The effects you want are possible, but It will take some time and customization. Bulk-creation makes it much faster, I Imported almost 300 but it only took a weekend of playing around and i'm extremely happy with the results, so for me that was well worth the time and effort i'm saving not having to go back and forth between programs. IMO part of ones journey as an artist is the quest for those perfect comfortable brushes. I'm happy you seem to have found some that work well for you in other programs, and I hope you find success finding or creating some for rebelle. And hey, if you do make some scumblers you love maybe upload them to the free assets brush library and become the scumble brush change you want to see in the world! (I would share mine but unfortunately the tips I used came from a paid PS brush pack. If I make some completely custom i'll let you know.) Good luck and happy painting!

Username: fanton
Post Date: 2022-10-28 11:21:12

[i]"The problem with Rebelle's brush engine right now, seems to be that when decreasing the load, the paint doesn't actually dry out and create this effect--instead, it tends to just decrease the opacity of the brush"[/i] This is incorrect, thankfully. All of the [b]default brushes aren't good at doing this[/b], but Rebelle brushes can actually 'dry out'. These are 2 of my brushes in Rebelle 5: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/10/2804/2022-10-28_11-10:15_Scumbling Test.jpg[/img] The settings to tweak with are 'pressure', 'loading' and 'opacity curve editor'. This can even be achieved with paint and blend brushes, which gives a lovely effect. I have made many brushes like this and I assure you, [b]the effect you're after is possible[/b]. You'll also notice the brush on the right is one of the ones you have in photoshop - plastic wrap (I think I have the 70 px version, you seem to have the 40 px, but it's essentially the same). This is because this, and most of my brush shapes are imported from photoshop brushes, because there are PS brush packs wayyyy more suited to this than Rebelle default shapes, such as the Yizheng Ke or Wangjie Li packs. Basically, how it works is that if set up correctly, only the most opaque parts of the brush will paint. This is the same as in photoshop, just slightly harder to set up. I'd be happy to make a brush for you and show the process, so you can replicate it with other brushes. Hope this helps

Username: fanton
Post Date: 2022-10-28 11:29:34

woops my bad, didn't realise there were 3 pages on this thread lol. anyway, I still think that the 'drying out' issue hadn't been addressed so I hope my reply can help with that.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-11-10 02:47:35

[USER=31654]@Dargun[/USER] - Thanks for your input! I don't know if you saw my attempt at replicating some Photoshop brushes on page 2. I did watch a bunch of Rebelle brush creator tutorial videos and pretty much did what you described and created a batch of brushes. Although they are better than the default ones or the downloadable ones, they still aren't as gritty and dynamic as the Photoshop ones. The main issue that I can discern, is that Rebelle's brush engine doesn't seem to have actual simulation of movable virtual bristles that can splay out or bend in directions according to stylus pressure and stroke direction (I could be wrong about this---but that's what it looks like to me). This makes them much more static. While using different tips in one brush might solve the problem, it's a much more cumbersome process and not a 100% solution. Having actual dynamically moving virtual bristles would certainly make it feel more natural and the brush design process easier. The more minor issue is the lack of interesting brush tips and textures to achieve the dry brush/scumbling look, which obviously can be created by the user. Even Photoshop don't have those by default and you'd have to go download or buy additional brush packs to get that look. But there are brushes from other art apps that don't use dynamic bristles and only rely on a static brush tip and then maybe texture/grain, and they achieve the look I'm after. I tried to duplicate those brushes in Rebelle using the stamped brush tip process, but they didn't come out as well as I had hoped. When compared to the original brushes, they all seemed more tame and less dynamic. [USER=97620]@fanton[/USER] - I've been a fan of Yizheng Ke and Wangjie Li for years, and my own work is in that same school of art--basically impressionism-influenced realism. I have their brushes and we all have similar influences like John Singer Sargent, Anders Zorn, Richard Schmid, Craig Mullins, etc. I'm not sure what it is, but I experimented with all the brush settings and could not match the results I can get in other apps. There's always something lacking. Sometimes I can get maybe 80% of the way there, but that last 20% just eludes me. You guys are welcome to download the brush set I created and try them (posted higher up on this page), and then see if you can improve upon them.

Username: fanton
Post Date: 2022-12-01 11:46:03

Hi Rob, I made a [url=https://bellecour-my.sharepoint.com/:i:/g/personal/r_czartoryski1_bellecour_pro/ETMwgRzk38VDhh_rDAteSDcBnrEjIcfzx1R1UVd6osgeQA?e=l4Ssb5]quick edit[/url] of the first brush in your pack, for me this works a bit better as a scumbling brush, even if its not what you're looking for, i hope it might help to see what I changed in the brush creator panel. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/12/2804/2022-12-01_11-12:59_brush tests.jpg[/img] also, after messing around with it some more, I agree, 'dryoff' should not be linked to opacity (aka, we should be able to make the less dense brush texture opaque).

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-07 08:48:03

That's cool. Your edit looks a bit more natural. The way the grain of the brush is handled is half of the equation. To get a more expressive looking dry/scumbling brush, the bristles would need to be dynamic and actually splay and bend and move according to the stroke direction and pressure. The brush engine in its current state doesn't seem to be able to do that.

Username: vrkaya
Post Date: 2022-12-17 15:29:22

LunatiqueRob, that is very nice work you do and I am looking for the same thing. I also,prefer that dry/stumbled/texture revealing look and it is what I do with traditional materials. I'm just starting with digital painting and would like to see those brushes included by default with rebelle. It is truly a wonderful art program and needs it ! Ron

Username: vrkaya
Post Date: 2022-12-17 15:33:06

Schmid is one of my all time favorites also! Thanks for sharing your brushes..... I will also give the, a try

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-17 19:35:57

Now that Rebelle 6 is out, it should contain new brushes that are close to what I have been trying to achieve. I'll post my thoughts after I've had time to really test them out.

Username: vrkaya
Post Date: 2022-12-18 15:37:31

LunatiqueRob, Can I ask which brush packs you use for PS? You mentioned you purchased them and there are so many when I try to do a search. I use PS a lot also! Regards, Ron

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-18 18:55:53

I also have a ton of Photoshop brush packs (I've spent hundreds of dollars on them), but the one that will get you many of the kind of brushes I used in my portrait paintings is the Greg Rutkowski pack. [URL]https://www.artstation.com/marketplace/p/17eo/greg-rutkowski-brushes[/URL]

Username: vrkaya
Post Date: 2022-12-19 00:15:47

Thank you so much for the link for the PS brushes!!

Username: michaelws
Post Date: 2022-12-19 05:01:57

Richard Schmidt has been a favorite painter of mine for the pat 30 years. A brilliant master of alla prima painting. I too hope that dry-brush settings can be enhanced in Rebelle. Love your portraits LunatiqueRob.

Username: alreb
Post Date: 2022-12-28 00:08:25

lunatique, I don't know if this can be useful but I was able to mimic, to a certain degree, a watercolor brush gradually losing it's pigment load. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/12/4/2022-12-27_23-12:32_brushstroke1.jpg[/img] I did not touch the 'lenght' feature, which I agree with you should be detached from opacity, instead I reversed the 'canvas texture influence' intensity curve [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/12/4/2022-12-28_00-12:41_Cattura.jpg[/img] it is not a direct solution to the problem and maybe even unrelated to what you're looking for, but who knows you may find it useful.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-29 07:34:46

That's pretty cool. Does it only work on the watercolor brush engine, or also with the oil/acrylic and express oils too? I'll give it a try and see what I can come up with.

Username: alreb
Post Date: 2022-12-29 08:23:13

actually I didn't try that with oils.. will do. let me know how it works (or not) for you. ps. the secret with this setting is to start with light pressure and increase it along the way

Username: Antmax
Post Date: 2022-12-30 00:26:16

Great thread. I'm still on 5 Pro and when I try and with scumbling it always feels like I'm painting onto a oil rubbed canvas where the detail of the bristles bleed out. Which is what I'm seeing in the examples LunatiqueRob is showing. Very usefull discussion. Can't see a way to save the topic and get notified of updates.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-30 00:28:19

[USER=3976]@alreb[/USER] - I spent some time playing around and the behavior is the same when using oils/acrylics. It's a step in the right direction, but the gritty texture is too consistent and still looks too homogenized. When using a real dry/scumbling brush, there's an element of randomness where in a stroke that's drying out and being dragged or scumbled on the painting surface, some spots on the brush bristles would exert more or less force and make more or less contact, and this is constantly changing based on the angle, speed, direction, pressure, etc., of your brushstroke. The other art apps I use can emulate that behavior to various degrees of satisfaction. Rebelle currently still cannot emulated that in version 6. Maybe if they do a major overhaul/update in an upcoming release, or maybe we'll have to wait until version 7. Maybe never (although I hope that's not the case). BTW, from what I tell, there's no reason to reverse the canvas texture influence--you can still get the same behavior if you used unreversed curve. (I also set the opacity curve to flat so it doesn't fade my stroke into semi-transparent.)

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-30 00:32:11

[USER=94976]@Antmax[/USER] - I've brought up the forum glitch with Escape Motion's tech support team, and they know it's got various issues (email notification for new posts not working, no way to subscribe to a topic, no way to edit a post, lots of spams, etc.) and intend to migrate to a more robust forum in the future. It's probably not on the top of their priority list, so I have no idea how long we have to wait.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-30 07:28:06

Here's an example of a painting I'm working on currently that I couldn't paint the background in Rebelle and get the look I want, and had to paint it in Photoshop instead. It's all because Rebelle's brush engine doesn't have dynamic bristles that will splay or clump together based on angle, tilt, direction, pressure, speed, etc. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2022/12/5/2022-12-30_07-12:11_Loona-Chuu-Rob_Chang-12.jpg[/img]

Username: Antmax
Post Date: 2022-12-30 19:26:35

[USER=101069]@LunatiqueRob[/USER] I see what you mean. It looks more like hard pastels rubbed sideways maybe with color pencils :(

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2022-12-31 02:49:15

What I posted was done in PS. It gives me the dynamic bristles behavior, but it can't do thick impasto like Rebelle. This is why I wish Rebelle would implement dynamic bristles, so I can have the best of both worlds. Adobe is certainly not going to add impasto painting to PS (and probably not to Fresco either). My current plan is to go over those strokes in the background with Rebelle impasto brushes carefully to build up more thickness.

Username: krislap
Post Date: 2023-01-16 20:34:30

Following

Username: Nils-Petter Olsen
Post Date: 2023-01-16 20:57:41

Maybe if rebelle could zoom the grain too when pressure is increased? (Tick a bix to enable..)

Username: Nils-Petter Olsen
Post Date: 2023-01-16 20:58:35

*box

Username: Robert Hopkins
Post Date: 2023-01-16 21:03:47

Following also. I do like the backgrounds you are getting in PS. Great work!

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-05-20 03:46:07

Escape Motions recently releases some gesso textured papers, which was based on my request in this thread: [URL]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/forum/t/39017/can-we-get-some-gesso-textured-papers-in-rebelle/1[/URL] Here's a quickie test I did using one of the gesso textured papers, and it does look like the kind of gesso textures I have used in my past artworks. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_03-05:03_GessoFineEX33.jpg[/img] The way the brushes/paint interacts with the gesso texture isn't 100% there yet, as it's hard to get a setting where the transition from thick impasto to dry brush/scumbling can be controlled intuitively with stylus pressure. I'd have to constantly adjust the oiliness setting on each brush to get it right. I hope they tweak it so that it can be more intuitive like real paint, where even if you have a brush loaded with lots of thick paint, you can still just barely scrape the tooth of the canvas texture and still get that dry brush look. The next thing I hope they work on is dynamic brushes that can have the virtual bristles splay apart or clump together based on the direction of your strokes and the pressure. This combined with the gesso surfaces and better transition from thick paint to dry brush/scumbling, will be the most realistic and expressive digital painting experience.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-05-20 07:23:06

Here are some examples of how real paint can be thick but still have that "scraped onto the tooth of the canvas/paper texture" look, which Rebelle's brush engine cannot do yet. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:23_thick paint dry brush examples.jpg[/img] Right now, the brush engine when pressing lightly on the stylus, will decrease the thickness of the paint and the result looks more like the fine grains of dry media, instead of thick paint scraped onto the painting surface.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-05-20 07:24:22

And I know others have requested for much thicker impasto, and I want to again bring that up, because it will add so much more expressiveness to paintings, like in these examples: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:13_Thick impasto examples.jpg[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-05-20 07:41:04

I also want to show some examples of what dynamic brushes can achieve. These are from some of my favorite digital artists, and they are some of the finest examples of how digital art can look very expressive and almost indistinguishable to real paint and paper and canvas. As far as I know, all of them were done in Photoshop, which is not a software people tend to associate with very natural and expressive looking brushes, but having purchased and created many Photoshop brushes over the last 25 years, I know firsthand just how good they can be--in fact many of the very natural effects you see in these artworks are done with brushes that I also use in my own work (and I'm sure you can see their influence on my own work too). The reason I want to show these examples is because I want everyone to see just how expressive dynamic brushes can be, and it's one of the main reasons why despite Rebelle being touted as a realistic painting software, it still cannot achieve the same level of expressiveness as these examples below. And also, I would like think these example will light a fire under the butts of Escape Motions developers and inspire them to push boundaries even more. And lastly, I haven't really talked about the dry media brushes in Rebelle, and it's because they are so behind many other art apps in that area that I can't even uses any of those brushes. Whenever I want to do a dry media piece I would just use Photoshop, Artstudio Pro, Procreate, etc. Some of these examples below also showcases how much better Photoshop's dry media brushes are, and I hope Rebelle will catch up in that area soon. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:02_2020-08-25 03.51.46 2383477715730163319_358393497.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:13_2021-10-02 12.23.28 2675819882536721699_8683415132.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:36_45937845_301651367353454_2050809092422762496_n.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:56_yizheng-ke-2017-4-8.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:28_yizheng-ke-2019-7-3x.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:38_2022-01-11 01.19.46 2748718369190431091_8683415132.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:09_38696015_829733263897095_4121168188782149632_o.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:42_2020-05-07 04.11.30 2303762317039109347_8683415132.jpg[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-05-20 07:58:36

Some more examples. And BTW, these are all by Yizheng Ke and Wangjie Le, two Chinese digital artists that pretty much pioneered this style of digital painting. If Craig Mullins was the first digital artist to use digital tools to draw and paint in a traditional style that's very expressive, then I think of these guys as the second wave of pioneers, who took the realism of the natural media look to the next level. And all of them used Photoshop. This also brings up another point. Why are these digital artists of the highest caliber still using Photoshop when so many other art software had been developed in the decades since, many of which touted realistic natural media brushes and advanced brush engines? Shouldn't they have all jumped on Corel Painter, Artrage, Rebelle, etc., by now? Sure, they all have played around with other art software, but they all still stuck to Photoshop as their main workhorse, and I think just by looking at these examples, you can see why. Despite Photoshop being ancient compared to all the newer art software out there, its brushes are still unbeatable, even if there's no realistic impasto or watercolor physics. I feel that if Escape Motion really wants to capture the attention and loyalty of these top-tier digital artists who are global superstars, they will need to improve/rethink Rebelle's brush engine at a fundamental level, asking themselves how they can first at least match the expressiveness of Photoshop's brushes even without the fancy impasto and watercolor physics, and then with those added on top, will make it the most advanced brush engine and realistic results that even loyal die-hard Photoshop-based digital artists will jump ship and start using Rebelle as their workhorse. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:05_yizheng-ke-2017-4-1.jpg[/img][img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:18_2019-12-04 08.00.55 2191567738416243663_358393497.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:54_yizheng-ke-2019-7-1x.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:18_2021-11-13 01.03.00 2705948172017792015_8683415132.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:35_19400445_634249610112129_1109987144040262600_o.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:52_2019-12-03 15.48.34 2191078340927024972_358393497.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:22_23275464_688497931353963_6281930099328485483_o.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/05/6/2023-05-20_07-05:35_2022-03-18 02.03.29 2796545372593320589_8683415132.jpg[/img]

Username: michaelws
Post Date: 2023-05-30 23:34:33

I "second" the last post by LunatiqueRob. Rebelle is so close to being the best digital 2D art program available. I have stopped using it temporarily as I get frustrated at being unable to utilize better impasto effects and the stated lack of stumbling brushes. I still applaud the team at Escape Motions. Great work...so far. I look forward to the implementation of these suggested upgrades.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-06-01 05:37:47

[USER=2548]@michaelws[/USER] - The Escape Motions team has done an amazing job, considering that in my 25 years of being a professional digital artist, the only art software that even comes close to tempting me away from Photoshop, and had successfully done so for some artworks. Before Rebelle, it was nearly impossible for me to do any artwork completely in another art software without exporting to Photoshop at least once to do something that only Photoshop can do (or it's too frustrating to do it outside of Photoshop). The other art software either lacked critical image editing features that all digital artists need, or they lacked the range of brushes and advanced brush engine Photoshop has. With version 6, Rebelle has become complete enough that I don't even need to export to Photoshop anymore--unless I really need certain brushes that Rebelle can't yet do (such as the dynamic bristles and dry brush/scumbling). Rebelle is SO CLOSE to becoming my one and only go-to art software and with every update they release, I'm holding my breath and hoping to see it get closer and closer to that perfect ideal, and then I can finally give Adobe the finger and stop using Photoshop (I mean does anyone actually like Adobe as a company?).

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-06-01 06:57:31

For those who are following this thread, I want to point you to another thread I have that's closely related to this one, with more brush experiments. [URL]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/forum/t/39017/can-we-get-some-gesso-textured-papers-in-rebelle/1[/URL]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-06-01 06:59:08

[url=https://www.escapemotions.com/community/forum/t/39017/can-we-get-some-gesso-textured-papers-in-rebelle/1]Sorry, forgot to create the link: https://www.escapemotions.com/community/forum/t/39017/can-we-get-some-gesso-textured-papers-in-rebelle/1[/url]

Username: GGALEN
Post Date: 2023-06-25 18:31:41

Rob, I am EXACTLY at your place in regards to digital media tools and the dry scumbling/textures issue in Rebelle. I have enjoyed your takin g the time to patiently explain your thoughts and experiments in trying to solve the problem. I have come to the conclusion that I will just use Rebelle for what it does best, and Photoshop for what it does bese, and send layes back and forth with the plugin. I have invested SO many hours into Photoshop, and it is AMAZING at the things it can do. And while I do not like the way Adobe squeezes every ounce of profit out of us, I suppose that is what companies do in a free enterprise system. I admire your work. --- Glenn Galen [url=https://fineartamerica.com/profiles/glenn-galen]My Gallery of Work[/url]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-06-28 00:54:10

[USER=157604]@GGALEN[/USER] - Thank you. I hope sometime in the near future the Escape Motions team will delight us with an updated brush engine that can finally let us work 100% in Rebelle and not have to bother with Photoshop anymore. That is the dream.

Username: mac0285
Post Date: 2023-07-04 02:39:13

Thanks Rob for your time and effort and experimentation on this subject, and for pushing Escape Motions to make their cool software even better!

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-07-26 20:04:59

This is the latest portrait I painted in Rebelle, and while working on it, I ran into the limitation of Rebelle's brush engine again. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/07/7/2023-07-26_19-07:48_Yulhee_portrait-Robert_Chang(rgb).jpg[/img] I had wanted the background to be these prominent and expressive abstract-looking brushstrokes, but I simply could not achieve the expressiveness I wanted, no matter how I tweaked the brushes, so I ended up going for more of a stucco wall kind of textured background using impasto brushes. This is exactly what I was talking about before, with the dynamic bristles and the wider range of expressive parameter being controlled by the brush, using pressure, tilt angle, direction, etc., so the stroke is less static looking. Here are some examples of the kind of look I was going for but couldn't achieve in Rebelle. Whatever I did looked like stiff and rigid looking imitations because of the brush engine's limitations: [img]https://mylifewiththemasters.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/img_5528.jpg[/img] [img]https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MOrJ9YKDIb0/UnuwgG_9AAI/AAAAAAAADg4/7LCNsJ6NSVo/s1600/2+-+the+portrait.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.muddycolors.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/IMG_6955.jpg[/img] Another issue I ran into was the canvas/brush size limitation. I wanted to be able to print big (poster size), but the brush size has limitations and I couldn't get wide enough brushstrokes. I guess the only solution currently is to use smaller canvas size and then use the Nanopixel feature to upsize it later.

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2023-07-27 19:37:54

I just realized the last portrait I posted contained a problem, so here's the updated version: [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/07/7/2023-07-27_19-07:48_Yulhee_portrait-Robert_Chang(rgb).jpg[/img]

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-20 05:55:31

This thread inspired me. I made some scumbling brushes. Great word. Can\'t figure out how to share them on escapemotions.com so here is a link to my google drive. [URL unfurl="true"]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d6CPp7jB5lEKDDh-k5GZW2C26qNu5cYx/view?usp=drive_link[/URL] Unzip it, and copy these brushes into your favorites folder. C:\Users\**your user name**\AppData\Local\Escape Motions\Rebelle 7\Brushes\Favorite\Default Set Most of these should work with Rebelle 6, because I didn\'t use the new texture tab very much. Use the \"26_brush-marks.png\" as your canvas bg. And here is a piece I made using mostly the "Scumbling faves" [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/2804/2023-12-20_05-12:22_scumbling faves.jpg[/img]

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-20 06:19:05

Here are some brush strokes examples of the brush pack I shared in the post above. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/7/2023-12-20_06-12:21_scumbling faves strokes.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/7/2023-12-20_06-12:38_scumbling 1.1.jpg[/img] [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/7/2023-12-20_06-12:53_scumbling 1.2.jpg[/img]

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-20 06:40:26

[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/7/2023-12-20_06-12:22_scumbling collage.jpg[/img]

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-20 06:45:37

more of my "scumbling" brushes I made. check a few post above to download them from my google drive. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/8/2023-12-20_06-12:33_scumbling 2.jpg[/img]

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-20 18:39:38

[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/8/2023-12-20_18-12:20_scumbling faves4.jpg[/img]

Username: lolozori
Post Date: 2023-12-21 10:55:39

GurujotNM, some of those brushes are very close to Rutowski, like scu2 brushes in scrambling 2. I really thanks and I think Op if he still post here would enjoy them too.

Username: lolozori
Post Date: 2023-12-21 10:59:40

If someone from the rebelle team could look at GurujotNM set posted in the previous page and make brushes like scu2 from scrambling 2 but with real impasto loading effect in the futur (is it even possible now) it would be awesome!

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-21 23:29:19

I'm glad you enjoy the brushes. If you want impasto just turn up the slider for Max impasto height. I kept it on zero to get a dry brush effect, but that's an easy change. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/8/2023-12-21_23-12:42_impasto.png[/img] For most of these brushes, you can do the same.

Username: GurujotNM
Post Date: 2023-12-21 23:50:56

Also, for anyone reading this thread. Try out the pre-loaded grunge brushes in Rebelle 7. They are pretty cool. You can turn off the impasto, and the resizing with pen pressure if you want. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/8/2023-12-21_23-12:07_rebelle 7 grunge brushes.jpg[/img] I think these brushes are the easiest way to get some of the effects mentioned earlier in this thread by LunaticRob. Here are some PS brush tests he posted earlier in the thread. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/8/2023-12-21_23-12:10_photoshop brushes.png[/img] The cool thing about Rebelle is being able to change from paint, to paint and blend, blend, and erase. Switching between these with applying less and more pressure with any of these brushes can get you a lot of variation and control. Here is a quick test using the scu5 brush. just as an example. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2023/12/8/2023-12-21_23-12:40_scu5.jpg[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2024-03-16 21:17:46

[USER=101007]@GurujotNM[/USER] - Thanks for the brushes and the examples! I'll download them and give them a spin and let you know what I think. I've been meaning to post an update to this thread, since version 7 has once again improved in the area of scumbling/dry brush. It has gotten easier to achieve the look I want, and I think at this point, all that's left on my wishlist for the brush engine is dynamic bristles and even thicker impasto. By dynamic bristles, I mean bristles that will splay apart or clump together according to pressure, tilt, and direction, and they will splay apart with different spacings and angles between the groups of bristles so it's not just a static arrangement getting bitter and smaller like it is now. Photoshop has this and its one of the only reasons left for me to still use Photoshop for drawing/painting. (That, and the available dry media brushes for Photoshop is vastly superior, with lots of different variety, but more important, with more interesting varieties that look very expressive.) As for even thicker impasto, I know there are plenty of other Rebelle users who want this. Ideally we can have it as thick as we could in real life, where you're basically sculpting with paint. Here's a painting I did with version 7. I don't know how much of what you see is only achievable with version 7's updated brushes and engine, since I don't keep track of what brushes I used, but I do remember I tried to use as much of the new and updated brushes as possible. [img]https://escapemotions1.b-cdn.net/gallery/pictures/0145c8eac4c242bf89655d30ee951a73.jpg[/img] [img]https://escapemotions1.b-cdn.net/gallery/pictures/a2611595b1583d1b5e394019311f3bac.jpg[/img]

Username: Ardisan
Post Date: 2024-03-31 12:58:44

These brushes are fantastic, thank you so much GurujotNM!

Username: reformedstudent
Post Date: 2024-04-03 19:51:07

I am also very interested in the scumbling ability. I just tried a master copy of one of the Schmid pictures you posted to see what I could do. One thing I am learning is that switching between #2 (paint & mix) and #3 (paint and blend) helps with the expressive strokes. Also the Sumi britsle is great. I copied it to my Oil & Acrylics - and go back and forth with the Watercolor sumi bristle to make interesting textures - I think I could tweek them more to get that wet and dry scumbling look. I with there was a turp brush that worked like an eraser but left a streaky trasparent color. [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/gallery/i/0790c45f5c8844e28e4049ad441b7122/u/reformedstudent[/img]

Username: LunatiqueRob
Post Date: 2024-04-20 02:41:51

[USER=172505]@reformedstudent[/USER] Your image isn't showing. It's blank on my end.

Username: oandroido
Post Date: 2025-01-20 13:37:09

[USER=101069]@LunatiqueRob[/USER] - found this in a search for the same thing. Any success with this? I also just posted [URL='https://www.escapemotions.com/community/forum/t/42669/brush-loading-wet-dry-brushing-and-mixing-palette-questions/']here [/URL]about it. TIA