Color Profile issues?
Username: audiovisualboy
Post Date: 2024-02-05 21:16:02
Hi there, first off let me preface by saying two key things: 1) I apologize if this issue is covered in a separate topic, I DID spend a good amount time searching through the forum topics but while there were a few topics that were close, none that seemed to discuss the specific issues I am having. 2) If this is an obvious fix, I apologize for my ignorance. I did read through the manual on Color Management and Color Profiles however I confess I find this topic very confusing.
The ISSUE: The colours of saved/exported image as more saturated than on canvas while painting. This can be by way of “save as” or by “NanoPixel export.” I also noticed it with my Time-Lapse recordings. What is recorded looks different as well. What do I mean by different? Well let’s take a look:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/134/2024-02-05_21-02:47_MAX-side-by-side.jpg[/img]
Here I’ve put both side by side and done a swatch of colour from a spot just to really showcase the problem clearly.
Now I assume this is a colour management issue? Perhaps it's not. The dream is that when I hit export or save as or whatever, that what comes out the other end for me is as similar as possible to what I saw when I was painting IN Rebelle on screen.
Here’s a look at my Colour Management settings:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/134/2024-02-05_21-02:17_settings.jpg[/img]
And Here’s a look at thumbnails of the files in my folder showing it doesn’t matter what I choose (jpg, png, nanoExport or save as) they all share the same over saturation and colour shift:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/134/2024-02-05_21-02:22_3-up.jpg[/img]
Here are some additional details in case they are relevant:
Rebelle version 7.0.7 pro (although I actually painted this in Rebelle 6 pro and the problem presents itself in all the same ways there as well)
Intel based MacBook Pro (2019), main screen external Dell S2712Q.
Thanks in advance for any education or help on this!
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-06 11:44:59
your issue looks similar to an issue i had awhile back
[url=https://www.escapemotions.com/community/forum/t/39427/exporting-png]link[/url]
what fixed it for me back then was checking what my color profile was set to as default for my monitor
then i set each of those settings in rebelle to the same color profile my monitor is using as its default
since you already have an image open you'll have to convert the profile by going to edit > convert to profile
let me know if this helps
Username: audiovisualboy
Post Date: 2024-02-06 18:30:03
First of all, thanks so much for your reply Cherie. So I went and looked at that post and then set everything across the board to sRGB as in the screenshot that Veronika had shown, did my tests again and it's the same problem. Unfortunately you can only upload JPGs here it seems, so I can't show you the actual PNG screenshot which is a shame because it's slightly different than what you are seeing here. However you should at least see the difference still on this new test i did.... here is the SCREENSHOT then saved in photoshop as a JPG:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-06_18-02:45_oil-pigments-color-wheel-SCREENSHOT.jpg[/img]
And here is a file exported out of Rebelle (this is a nanoExport JPG but it is the same for Nano PNG, and also SAVE AS jpg and png):
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-06_18-02:45_oil-pigments-color-wheel-save-as.jpg[/img]
What I REALLY wish you could see is the difference between the screenshot PNG i took and the JPG that I saved out from Photoshop (the top/first color wheel image i posted). What is very striking is the vibrancy of the ORANGE sepctrum especially.
I am baffled by all of this and also fairly frustrated!
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-07 00:52:25
youre welcome, i was also super frustrated by this
i can clearly see the difference in the chroma especially on that orange like youre saying
let's see since you are using a mac can you screen shot a pic of the color profile it says your mac is using before and after starting rebelle?
just so we can be sure its not doing something wonky.
you may have to change what os the instructions are for since im not sure which os you are running.
[url=https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-your-displays-color-profile-mchlf3ddc60d/mac#:~:text=On your Mac, choose Apple,may need to scroll down.)&text=Click the pop-up menu,profile you want to use.]link to instructions on setting mac color profile[/url]
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-07 01:17:37
i went ahead and tested srgb iec61966-2.1
set my monitor color profile and rebelle to iec61966-2.1
for reference im on win 10
im getting the same chroma issue you are left is saved image, right is rebelle so a mismatch of chroma
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-07_01-02:32_image.png[/img]
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-07 01:22:54
tested with my monitor's profile LG ultrafine
set my monitor color profile and rebelle to LG ultrafine
still on win 10
the issue is no longer there the chroma matches
left is saved , right rebelle [img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-07_01-02:55_choma match lgultrafine.png[/img]
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-07 01:26:17
however, because of this old style of forum i have to
screenshot the comparison
paste in discord
open in browser
save as
---
thats when i notice the chroma has gone down and no longer matches the original image
so something is embedding a color profile when it shouldnt be
this is the same image as the 1 above using LG ultrafine
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/1/2024-02-07_01-02:46_lost chroma lg ultrafine.png[/img]
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-07 01:51:17
tested with my monitor's profile set to Adobe 1998
set my monitor color profile and rebelle to Adobe 1998
still on win 10
the issue is back and the chroma no longer matches
left is saved , right rebelle
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-07_01-02:01_adobe 98 comparison.png[/img]
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-07 02:31:02
i hope someone else comes along and tests their adobe 1998 and srgb iec61966 - 2.1
it may be something to do with these 2 color profiles
the only one that works for me is my monitor's proprietary profile LG ultrafine
---
if either of your monitors came with color profiles id see if those work better
or some calibration devices make custom icc profiles for you that may be a better way to get around this issue
--
could be user error on my part but its strange that my LG one works and the others dont when set the same way
--
ill also note that i noticed in rebelle edit > assign profile seems to be changing the workspace's color profile. you can watch the color wheel and canvas colors update their colors real time.
--
the closest i was able to get with srgb iec61966-2.1 was taking the srgb image that we saved above
open it in rebelle
put the saved image on the side of the screen for comparison
in rebell edit > assign profile
and select srgb iec61966-2.1 from the profile drop down.
i would say it somewhat matches but there are some differences still.
might be a slight work around for now til staff can have a look and maybe we can get some more testers in here
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/1/2024-02-07_02-02:19_srgb retest and assign.png[/img]
Username: audiovisualboy
Post Date: 2024-02-07 05:26:39
Cherie! You did SO much work on this! Thank you for your interest in this issue! So here's the update on MY end: everything is working as I want on my end now thanks to you getting me to double check my monitors colour profile and make sure it was set to the same as Rebelle when I'm in it. I thought I had everything as sRGB across the board but it was my Dell monitor that I overlooked because when you bring up settings, and then display on Macbook the first thing is shows is your laptop monitor, and the way the interface looks was confusing so I just thought it was on the Dell. ANYWHO ... point is I did all my tests across the board and for the sake of clarity, below you can see my settings for everything. I even did a test where I brought a nanoexport png image from Rebelle and then saved it out from Photoshop as a jpg and it still matched (before when I tried this it was hideously off).
So the ONLY remaining thing that does NOT match on my end is the colour captured during Time-Lapse recording. But I have a feeling that might be the nature of the beast with the mp4 output?
I have one last test I am going to try tomorrow (it's bedtime where I am) which is to set everything to Adobe 1998 across the board and see if everything is consistent as well. Regarding Adobe 1998, btw: the reason I had always been prone to use it was because awhile back I read some stuff that seemed to indicate that there is a larger gamut coverage in Adobe 1998 vs sRGB? But at this point I don't know what to think about ANYTHING anymore, haha. I am just happy that with everything set as sRGB across the board I am getting consistent saves and exports to what I see on canvas while painting. Yay! Will report back tomorrow.
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-07_05-02:53_rebelle-settings.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-07_05-02:11_macbook-settings.jpg[/img]
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/41647/2024-02-07_05-02:30_adobe-settings.jpg[/img]
Username: Anton Escape Motions
Post Date: 2024-02-07 15:43:20
Hello there. The correct way is to set the same color profile for display in OS and in Rebelle. In Rebelle the default profile for monitors is sRGB, but it would be nice, if Rebelle use the system color profile instead.
For more accurate colors the display profile should be the profile from the display vendor, or ideally created by a calibration device. It doesn't make much sense to set it to AdobeRGB, if the display device doesn't have such wide color gamut.
I tested AdobeRGB as display profile and noticed no visual difference in color in Rebelle and exported image viewed in Windows Photos app.
Username: audiovisualboy
Post Date: 2024-02-07 16:53:38
Your answer can be perceived as condescending for which I am disappointed. Additionally you did not address the chroma discrepencies of the time-lapse output.
Username: Anton Escape Motions
Post Date: 2024-02-07 20:39:21
Condescending? I am little bit confused. Maybe I was just too brief. Time-lapse may have different colors than painting, when color management is active because color profile is not attached in video output. It seems to be possible that mp4 video file can have an icc color profile embedded, so we can consider adding it to the video file. But before time it wasn't so straightforward.
Username: audiovisualboy
Post Date: 2024-02-08 01:59:02
You can mark this as "solved", from my perspective.
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-08 03:04:30
audiovisualboy youre welcome! i'm so happy we were able to get this resolved.
so the use of adobe 1998 does mean a wider gamut of color but if you are planning on printing your work printers typically have issue printing colors out of gamut and most monitors also can have this same issue when reproducing images. adobe 1998 is also usually used for a printer's color profile but not for web display. Most monitors do not use adobe 1998 as their gamut. thats where Srgb is better to work with.
srgb iec61966-2.1 is a good standard to work with if youre doing work for prints, web and trying to get accurate color on your monitor. most monitors are made with Srgb being their standard. you can look up your monitor's standard in most cases before you buy it.
i looked your's up and its 99% Srgb meaning it covers 99% of the Srgb spectrum. so that would be the ideal color profile to set it to and to use in Rebelle. [url=https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-27-4k-uhd-monitor-s2721qs/apd/210-axlg/monitors-monitor-accessories]link to monitor info [/url][img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_02-02:45_gamut.png[/img]
if you have a printer you are going to use for prints it's recommended you use that printer's color profile and let the printer handle the colors, test print and see how it matches up. for instance i have an epson and it included a color profile that works well with my monitor's and rebelle's settings. it also prints from my LG ultrafine profile on the monitor with no color reproduction issues.
---
now as for that recording issue, the mp4 codec usually is using the rec 709 profile regardless of which compression method such as h.264 or h.265 because rec 709 is the standard for videography.
even on my screen the red chroma is very off in recording and that's testing with both options of h.265 and h.264.
an easy solution if that bothers you insanely like it does me, is to use something like davinci resolve and adjust the color's yourself. you could even save the adjustments as a project file so when you import it automatically adjusts to the correct colors.
---
still doesnt make sense why the only profile that works for me is my monitor's proprietary profile and not the other 2. if it was an issue with color reproduction of the monitor then i wouldn't be able to see the difference it wouldnt be able to display any difference really.
with all this being said i would love to know Anton Escape Motions 's specs and monitors as well as pictures of the saved pictures being the same as the rebelle window's. and please put more work into your responses, people on the forums are frustrated and a quickie answer when we've been troubleshooting is not very productive nor does it make the customers on this forum feel safe that they will be helped at all. and remember we are customers and supporters of this program and the company as well as your community.
Username: Anton Escape Motions
Post Date: 2024-02-08 16:47:12
Thanks cheriekitten, you are a very kind and knowledgeable person and I appreciate your effort. So, I made some tests, assigned different profiles to artwork, exported it to png, change display profile in Rebelle and in system settings and then compare exported images alongside with Rebelle. My monitor is Dell P2423 and its gamut is 99% sRGB, according to specs on Dell webpage.
Here are screenshots, where on the left side is exported image with attached color profile opened in Windows Photos and on the right side is same image in Rebelle. I also used some testing color profile, which swaps the red and green channels.
Assigned profile AdobeRGB, display profile sRGB:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:18_Clipboard01_AdobeRGB-sRGB.png[/img]
Assigned profile sRGB, display profile sRGB:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:38_Clipboard01_sRGB-sRGB.png[/img]
Assigned profile Swap Red->Green, display profile sRGB:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:25_Clipboard01_SwapRG-sRGB.png[/img]
Assigned profile AdobeRGB, display profile AdobeRGB:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:07_Clipboard01_AdobeRGB-AdobeRGB.png[/img]
Assigned profile sRGB, display profile AdobeRGB:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:24_Clipboard01_sRGB-AdobeRGB.png[/img]
Assigned profile Swap Red->Green, display profile AdobeRGB
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:05_Clipboard01_SwapRG-AdobeRGB.png[/img]
Assgned profile sRGB, display profile Dell:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:25_Clipboard01_sRGB-Dell.png[/img]
Assigned profile AdobeRGB, display profile Dell:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:09_Clipboard01_AdobeRGB-Dell.png[/img]
Assigned profile Swap Red->Green, display profile Dell:
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-08_16-02:31_Clipboard01_SwapRG-Dell.png[/img]
Username: Anton Escape Motions
Post Date: 2024-02-08 16:52:00
Important thing to note, both display and artwork profiles must be set to work color management properly in Rebelle.
Username: cheriekitten
Post Date: 2024-02-09 03:45:56
Anton Escape Motions thank you very much for your kind words
so i figured out what is causing it to not match. under color management > policies there is an option that says ask what to do and ask each time
if i assign paste/import images without profile to assume monitor profile it then works and we have a match.
but with ask each time there is no asking being done by any program lol so it does nothing and there is a mismach. funny enough those are the same settings audiovisualboy had checked as well, ask what to do and ask each time. but where is the prompt for the asking supposed to be ? it's not present on the OS or Rebelle it seems.
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-09_03-02:20_ask.png[/img]
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-09_03-02:47_ask 2.png[/img]
below is the match with srgb iec61966-2.1
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-09_03-02:19_the srgb works.png[/img]
Username: iravench
Post Date: 2024-02-12 11:39:58
[img]https://www.escapemotions.com/community/uploads/posts/2024/02/2/2024-02-12_10-02:07_Screenshot 2024-02-12 205352.png[/img]
Hopefully I set it correctly...
I find sRGB the easiest to work with for what I need. Apart from that, I just set the display profiles to their respective calibrated ones.
Also if a Rebelle artwork has been color managed, I believe when export, the exported image will be tagged or embedded with the artwork's assigned color profile. so when you import it back to Rebelle or view thru other applications that supports color management - provided reading the image's tagged/embedded color profile information, you should see the image shown correctly with the intended color.
Another gotcha I fell for, if you have a multi-monitors setup - say 2 monitors of diffrent models - and working on Windows, with the default Windows photo app, when you preview a color profiled image on monitor #1, it should be shown correctly as intended. Now if you move/drag the same image preview window over to monitor #2, it will be shown differently. This is probably the limitation/bug of Windows or Windows photo app.
Username: Anton Escape Motions
Post Date: 2024-02-13 13:45:00
Thanks cheriekitten, if no question is asked when importing an image, even if it is set to ask in the settings, this can be considered as a bug and will be fixed.
Hi iravench, Rebelle does assign color profile into saved images, so application with color management support can use it.
It seems, that Windows 11 Photos app handle monitor profiles correctly. I have two monitors and I set to one of them test profile, which swaps red and green color. Then I opened the image in Photos, moved it between monitors and the colors changed as expected.
About your settings, they looks ok to me.
Username: Vevo
Post Date: 2024-03-25 11:03:20
Hi guys,
[i]>>> if no question is asked when importing an image, even if it is set to ask in the settings, this can be considered as a bug and will be fixed.[/i]
This issue has been fixed!
This forum thread will be marked as solved. If you experience any other issue, please post to a separate thread.
One account,
many possibilities